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4c Triumph T110

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4c Triumph T110

Postby Diecast » Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:14 pm

I have mentioned the biff rivet approx. two years ago. This variation appears only at the very early model. By checking my spare models I noticed one early model with the spring type pin. I do not know if it was indeed another attempt by Lesney to solve the pin-problem by the front wheel or someone has replaced the front axle. It would be nice to be confirmed by someone here :D (or denyed) :(
Antonin
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Re: 4c Triumph T110

Postby Tinman » Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:34 pm

That roll pin or spring pin (roll pin is the common term in the US), is something I've never seen Lesney use. I strongly suspect tampering. If more turn up and if they can be proven to be original, this will come as a big surprise to me.

The problem with the roll pin is that it reguires force to install. It would probably cause more damage during installation and negate any time savings over peening a normal axle or biff pin. I suspect delicate parts like the front forks are not suitable for steel roll pins and mass production.
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Re: 4c Triumph T110

Postby ford_a_30 » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:27 pm

I could be wrong but looks to me like someone had a kick-ass dad. Bet the kid who owned it thought his father could fix anything.
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Re: 4c Triumph T110

Postby zBret » Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:47 pm

It would seem to me that with a roll pin, the diameter of the hole in the wheel would have be or have to been made, larger, in order for the wheel to rotate freely.

I remember when I got my biff rivet 4c ( knowing nothing about it at the time) that I though it was some kind of home-repair job. Later, when it was discovered that it was an actual variation ( and apparently a rather uncommon one) I was quite pleased and it is now one of my most prized models in my collection.

Has there been any consensus on whether or not the biff rivet variation is considered "rare"?

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Last edited by zBret on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4c Triumph T110

Postby nickjones » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:24 pm

I think the biff rivet is quite rare, It was not used for long because this type of rivet would clamp the forks together and stop the front wheel from rotating freely.
2 x 4c's both with axle pin
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Re: 4c Triumph T110

Postby yellowfoden » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:38 pm

Diecast wrote: By checking my spare models I noticed one early model with the spring type pin. I do not know if it was indeed another attempt by Lesney to solve the pin-problem by the front wheel or someone has replaced the front axle. It would be nice to be confirmed by someone here :D (or denyed) :(
Antonin


Hello Antonin, Joe, Hugh, Zbret and all

It is always nice to join the dots after many years of searching for the subtle variations. Even better when you can assist in confirming a variation for like minded collectors who wait on a second example to surface.
Here is my mini success for 2017.
Antonin, almost four years later, here is a model to answer your request to confirm the roll pin (spring pin) axle on the early production version of the 4c Triumph T110 with the thin ribs (braces) on the base.
I have been fortunate to examine three examples since you posted your example and took those opportunities to compare closely and measure each with all details matching.
The clue and catalyst for my hunt was that the number 78 Triumph T110.
This is the same roll pin ( spring pin ) method as used on the pre-pro 78 Triumph front wheel that came without base ribs (braces) prior to the number being changed to No 4. This was then very briefly used on some early thin rib 4c production models. My research however could not turn up any discussion on the roll pin fitted to the 78 triumph so this feature may have been overlooked.

The next front axle to be used was the alloy semi hollow tubular rivet (catalogued as bif rivet) .

The third type used is the standard steel dome head riveted (rounded) free end.

I note that on Nicks listing he refers to the code 1 as axel pin and does not differentiate between the code 1 and codes 3 thru 7. He states all use axle pin.
However I believe this perhaps could read as code 1 = roll pin (or spring pin)
Codes 3 thru 7 could read dome head riveted axle, the same as rear axle, just shorter in length.

The attached photos at bottom of post of the 78 Triumph pre-pro are courtesy of Alan’s Toys “vintagediecasttoys” Thanks Alan.


Bert
Attachments
1- 4c with thin braces and roll pin front wheel image 2.JPG
4c production model with thin braces and roll pin on front wheel
1- 4c with thin braces and roll pin front wheel image 2.JPG (62.33 KiB) Viewed 327 times
2 - 4c thin braces with roll pin front wheel.JPG
4c production model with thin braces with roll pin front wheel
2 - 4c thin braces with roll pin front wheel.JPG (79.27 KiB) Viewed 327 times
3 - 4c roll pin example 3 views.png
4c roll pin 3 views
3 - 4c roll pin example 3 views.png (428.87 KiB) Viewed 327 times
4 - 4c possible new code for variation table.png
4c possible new code for variation table
4 - 4c possible new code for variation table.png (13.29 KiB) Viewed 327 times
78 pre pro Triumph T110 with spring pin-roll pin.jpg
78 pre-pro Triumph T110 with spring pin or roll pin and smooth base
78 pre pro Triumph T110 with spring pin-roll pin.jpg (80.86 KiB) Viewed 327 times
Last edited by yellowfoden on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 4c Triumph T110

Postby yellowfoden » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:48 pm

zBret wrote:It would seem to me that with a roll pin, the diameter of the hole in the wheel would have be or have to been made, larger, in order for the wheel to rotate freely. zBret


Hello zbret,
(Hope you are keeping well, love your work with transforming worn Lesney's and giving them a new life as something new. Very clever.)

The roll pin is actually a firm fit within the wire hub and spins freely within the holes in the left and right forks.
In what I have read I think it is assumed that the roll pin is fixed to the forks, so I have added some pics to illustrate roll pin movement within axle fork frame holes as I have spun the wheel. The position of the slot in the roll pin in different positions (shown by the yellow lines) as the wheel is rotated.

One of the areas I examined closely on the three examples was the wire wheel hub to see if there was any signs of stress created by roll pin being inserted. All looked fine on the three models.

Bert
Attachments
1 - 4c roll pin rotation with fork axle hole.jpg
4c production model roll pin rotation with front fork axle holes
1 - 4c roll pin rotation with fork axle hole.jpg (69.41 KiB) Viewed 326 times
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Re: 4c Triumph T110

Postby GHOSTHUNTER » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:19 pm

The roll pin then is secured quite firmly within the wheel hub, so it is the wheel and axle rotating within the forks and not the wheel rotating around a fixed axle as pictures would imply before the spinning wheel pictures.

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Re: 4c Triumph T110

Postby Tinman » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:24 pm

Very interesting indeed. Thanks to all who participated and shared their discoveries.
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Re: 4c Triumph T110

Postby zBret » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:08 am

yellowfoden wrote:Hello zbret,
(Hope you are keeping well, love your work with transforming worn Lesney's and giving them a new life as something new. Very clever.)Bert

Hi Bert, Thanks! Doing ok more or less here, hope all is well with you down there also.
Great confirmation of the roll pin front axle variation. Interesting that the pin is fixed in the wheel and rotates in the fork holes. I would think in time that the hardened steel roll pin would tend to wear the softer metal of the forks and that's perhaps why they sought another means for attaching the front wheel.
(have noticed, photobucket, has removed my original biff rivet pic, so I will go and put that back.)
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