Vintage British Diecasts Website
Vintage British Diecast Forum • View topic - Little-Known 51c Variation

Little-Known 51c Variation

All regular wheel 1-75 or miniatures topics

Re: Little-Known 51c Variation

Postby Brad Pittiful » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:53 pm

Idris wrote:
Brad Pittiful wrote:idris...a casting variation was found to have thin axle pivots...does yours have thick or thin pivots?


Well remembered!
'Thin' is the answer.


thanks...upon further research we need to here from jason on whether his thin axle pivot model has a red label!
Please use a web hosting site (like photobucket) to store pictures so you can post them here, using attachments makes it hard to view the pictures when you have to scroll to see them. Seeing comparisons of models is hard to see with attachments too.
User avatar
Brad Pittiful
 
Posts: 1154
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:03 pm
Location: The Tardis

Re: Little-Known 51c Variation

Postby Idris » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:32 am

DrJeep also has one (here).
User avatar
Idris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Denbigshire, Wales

Re: Little-Known 51c Variation

Postby DrJeep » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:29 pm

Idris wrote:Lot 5147 of the recent Wally Walters Vectis auction (hammer price £400 excl. buyer's premium) highlighted a little-known variation of the 'Douglas' label. Usually found in orange on white, and occasionally in black on white, very occasionally it is found in red on white. This is my example...and I can vouch that the printing is very definitely red rather than orange.


I wouldn't have known about this variation if I hadn't seen your photo, Idris. I think that means we know of three - yours, mine and the one that Vectis sold in January, which also looks to have thin tipper pivots. This and the lack of tow guide implies that they're early in production, but there must be more out there.
DrJeep
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:45 pm

Re: Little-Known 51c Variation

Postby Idris » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:19 pm

DrJeep wrote:
Idris wrote:Lot 5147 of the recent Wally Walters Vectis auction (hammer price £400 excl. buyer's premium) highlighted a little-known variation of the 'Douglas' label. Usually found in orange on white, and occasionally in black on white, very occasionally it is found in red on white. This is my example...and I can vouch that the printing is very definitely red rather than orange.


I wouldn't have known about this variation if I hadn't seen your photo, Idris. I think that means we know of three - yours, mine and the one that Vectis sold in January, which also looks to have thin tipper pivots. This and the lack of tow guide implies that they're early in production, but there must be more out there.


It certainly is an odd variation. I can't remember where I first heard of it, but it must have been documented somewhere for Vectis to have picked up on it and for the hammer price to have reached £400. However, it certainly wasn't listed in any of the sources I used for my catalogued variation review.
To me, it looks like a possible printer's error, with red substituted for orange. However, as you point out, only three examples are known to the Forum - significantly fewer than the monochrome-labelled version which must have been deliberate (rather than accidental). The evidence seems to point to the red-labelled variation being a genuine factory product but, if so, where does that then leave the black/white label version?
User avatar
Idris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Denbigshire, Wales

Re: Little-Known 51c Variation

Postby DrJeep » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:26 pm

Idris wrote:To me, it looks like a possible printer's error, with red substituted for orange.

Possibly - it's certainly an orangish red. But these seem to be early variants with thin tipper pivots (all three) and without the tow guide (mine, not sure about the other two). This means it's possible that they hadn't settled on the final colour and were trying out different variations. I guess the question is whether the orange body, orange label version exists with thin pivots and without the tow guide. This amazing collection has lots of yellow AECs with thin pivots, and a couple of orange AECs without tow guides, but as far as I can see no orange models without tow guides with thin pivots. If someone has an orange AEC with orange label, thin pivot, and no tow guide, then the red label is probably a printer error. If not, perhaps it's a prepro.

Idris wrote:The evidence seems to point to the red-labelled variation being a genuine factory product but, if so, where does that then leave the black/white label version?

This black label seems to have thick tipper pivots and this one definitely has thick tipper pivots and a tow guide, which means they're later than the red label models. I think this means they're probably label colour trials.

I meant to say thank you for showing your red label AEC - I wouldn't have noticed mine without seeing your example. Thanks!
DrJeep
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:45 pm

Re: Little-Known 51c Variation

Postby Idris » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:48 am

DrJeep wrote:I meant to say thank you for showing your red label AEC - I wouldn't have noticed mine without seeing your example. Thanks!


That's very kind of you, but no thanks are necessary. This Forum is by collectors for collectors. We all share a common interest and are here in order to help each other.
User avatar
Idris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Denbigshire, Wales

Re: Little-Known 51c Variation

Postby Idris » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:03 am

DrJeep wrote:
Idris wrote:The evidence seems to point to the red-labelled variation being a genuine factory product but, if so, where does that then leave the black/white label version?

This black label seems to have thick tipper pivots and this one definitely has thick tipper pivots and a tow guide, which means they're later than the red label models. I think this means they're probably label colour trials.


What I was trying to say (and failing abysmally) was that if the red label tippers represent something like a printer's error, or even a very late pre-production, it would be reasonable to expect there to have been hundreds of them, yet we know for certain of only three. However, there are at least a dozen, possibly more (I've lost count) monochrome-labelled models in collections.
If we assume that both variations have approximaley the same survival rate, that means that the run of black and white labelled trucks was significant. It has been suggested that they might be code 2 or code 3 promotionals, but is it credible that an obscure company like Douglas (I cannot even get a positive identification from the Internet, let alone find a photograph of any of their lorries) should produce a promotional model in such numbers?
Perhaps the answer is simply that the red-label Douglas is an overlooked variation and, in due course, other examples will surface.
User avatar
Idris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Denbigshire, Wales

Re: Little-Known 51c Variation

Postby DrJeep » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:51 am

Idris wrote: it would be reasonable to expect there to have been hundreds of them, yet we know for certain of only three.


I see what you mean. The red label is definitely harder to spot than the black, so there are probably more around, if people start looking. It will be interesting to see how many appear in the next year. I'm definitely going to keep looking.

I have no idea how many labels would have had to be produced in a single printing run but as you suggest, it must have been dozens if not hundreds. However, I imagine the cost would have been low compared to (say) a casting variation, so perhaps Lesney would have been prepared just to stop, rather than using them all up?
DrJeep
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:45 pm

Re: Little-Known 51c Variation

Postby Idris » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:05 pm

DrJeep wrote:I have no idea how many labels would have had to be produced in a single printing run but as you suggest, it must have been dozens if not hundreds. However, I imagine the cost would have been low compared to (say) a casting variation, so perhaps Lesney would have been prepared just to stop, rather than using them all up?


Time and time again, we have seen evidence of Lesney's 'waste not, want not' approach. IMHO, in Lesney's eyes, red would be close enough to orange for them to simply use the labels.
User avatar
Idris
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Denbigshire, Wales

Re: Little-Known 51c Variation

Postby motorman » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:09 pm

Very interesting discussions making a great read guys!
Motorman

"Kill all my demons and my angels will die too"
User avatar
motorman
Moderator
 
Posts: 6226
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:09 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

PreviousNext

Return to Lesney Matchbox regular wheels 1-75

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest